Curse

Turbo Ginsu · Feb 22, 2010, 02:15 PM // 14:15

^I have to agree with a lot of this. And btw, TK members, if you're communicating to the devs on what we say here, I've said it many times, several have agreed, give us back our VoR now please. U can have cry, but hows about just one little cookie?

Personally, I don't care what else happens, used the FD build Arkantos linked earlier before, gave it another roll tonight, still just a second rate waste of time build against any number of other builds..I dunno what your idea of fun is Ark, but mine isn't crawling around putting daze on with an elite when there's plenty of non elites to do it with. Oh and there's also epidemic. And Fragility. Oh I know, this all takes slots, but FD takes a slot too. A wasted, slow, boring elite slot.

You also mentioned pre-nerf VoR as being viable in DoA. Having had personal experience with it in DoA, would you personally say that bereft of Cry there is a reason for the VoR nerf to stand as-is?

The TK are among us in this thread, it just remains to be seen whether or not that actually matters at all, or whether it's just another aNet proprietary carrot, what Zappa referred to as jive talk..

Once again I repeat, those who say Mesmers are all about everything but raw damage are still not getting it. With the right skill bar, not focussed on interrupt or energy denial, a proper PvE skill bar, a Mesmer can be all about damaging the enemy for every single move they make(or don't

). This in PvE for a Mesmer, is no less important than any other class, especially for those of us who pour our time into our beloved Mes, regardless of the jeers and catcalls wherever we go. VoR was and should still be a shining example of this punishing approach to the use of a Mesmer.

What pisses me off the most? Those who never spend any real time on a Mesmer, telling those of us that do, the role we're supposed to fill, and the way we're meant to fill it.

Owell. Can always roll Me/Rt and SoSroll everything.. Welcome to Ritwars..Please leave class identity at the door.

Phaern Majes · Feb 22, 2010, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Its been said in other threads, but mesmers are ok at everything, great at nothing. Which makes them great as secondary professions in PvE. But necros can degen and crowd control better, rangers can interrupt equally as well, monks can run hex removal, is anything left? Oh e-denial in PvE... you're kidding right?

The only time mesmers were balanced is when the game was first released, and they were only balanced because nobody had fully explored all the optimal builds. So as a result mesmers could still find groups and run FoW and UW.

I started playing June '05. I don't believe I've ever seen a skill update where mesmers weren't nerfed or just left alone. Never buffed...ever. Sure a skill here or there maybe, but usually along with that single buff several others took a swing from the nerf bat.

Is it possible to beat the game and elite areas using mesmers? Sure it is. Is it easier/faster to do it with other classes? Yes. And in today's game its all about time, UWSC doesn't stand for Underworld Slow-it-the-hell-down Clear.

AngelWJedi · Feb 22, 2010, 03:08 PM // 15:08

okay i think its silly people think 600 is easy. if its easy why do we have to bring heals for them in cof? why do we have to bring dmg for dungeons they run like vloxxen and frostmaw? if its so good and easy why cant it do ducan's or all of uw? and when you go on a run and have the 600 die more then 6 times before half of lvl one is done in cof then you can rethink its easy.

I to wish they give more love to messies. most of the time i go /something and use the secondary skills more with some title skills and some interrupts. or they only want me when they cant get a monk bonder. i wish they wouldnt gives us dates/times for updates only to not deliver.

Fap · Feb 22, 2010, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

Its been said in other threads, but mesmers are ok at everything, great at nothing. Which makes them great as secondary professions in PvE. But necros can degen and crowd control better, rangers can interrupt equally as well, monks can run hex removal, is anything left? Oh e-denial in PvE... you're kidding right?

The only time mesmers were balanced is when the game was first released, and they were only balanced because nobody had fully explored all the optimal builds. So as a result mesmers could still find groups and run FoW and UW.

I started playing June '05. I don't believe I've ever seen a skill update where mesmers weren't nerfed or just left alone. Never buffed...ever. Sure a skill here or there maybe, but usually along with that single buff several others took a swing from the nerf bat.

Is it possible to beat the game and elite areas using mesmers? Sure it is. Is it easier/faster to do it with other classes? Yes. And in today's game its all about time, UWSC doesn't stand for Underworld Slow-it-the-hell-down Clear.

your sentence almost sounds like anything is needed besides damage in pve.

Del · Feb 22, 2010, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngelWJedi

okay i think its silly people think 600 is easy.

It is easy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngelWJedi

if its easy why do we have to bring heals for them in cof?

heals are for the smiter, not the tank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngelWJedi

why do we have to bring dmg for dungeons they run like vloxxen and frostmaw?

vlox is pokey without damage, and enchant strips/daze in frostmaw's

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngelWJedi

and when you go on a run and have the 600 die more then 6 times before half of lvl one is done in cof then you can rethink its easy.

if you die in cof 6 times before level 3, /uninstall. i didn't even die that much when i first learned to 600.

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 22, 2010, 03:34 PM // 15:34

When I take Norgu in PvE I have him do interrupting. Helps shut down dangerous high-damage enemies, vastly contributes to party survival.

Mesmers' primary function is interrupts, and they do that extremely well.

Morphy · Feb 22, 2010, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Keep the random buffs out of PvP, please. We've already seen what kind of abuses that creates.

Del · Feb 22, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Keep the random buffs out of PvP, please. We've already seen what this kind of abuses that creates.

what's wrong with backbreaker sword warriors chaining off of steelfang?

oh, same reason bbswayers is considered lame. kinda figured they'd have the common sense mot to undo that fix, but really, shouldn't figure anet would have any sort of common sense.

Space · Feb 22, 2010, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

Once again I repeat, those who say Mesmers are all about everything but raw damage are still not getting it. With the right skill bar, not focussed on interrupt or energy denial, a proper PvE skill bar, a Mesmer can be all about damaging the enemy for every single move they make(or don't

). This in PvE for a Mesmer, is no less important than any other class, especially for those of us who pour our time into our beloved Mes, regardless of the jeers and catcalls wherever we go. VoR was and should still be a shining example of this punishing approach to the use of a Mesmer.

The main problem is that you are essentially bashing a square pvp shaped mesmer into a round pve hole. When the majority of your skill pool is dedicated to sole target pvp play of course you are going to have deficiencies in pve.

Pve skills instead of being a tool to broaden the pve mesmer's appeal had the opposite effect and marginalised the class. Unfortunately unless there is a large scale skill function change, the only option is to suck it up (or whine on guru depending on your mental age).

Gill Halendt · Feb 22, 2010, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Space

Pve skills instead of being a tool to broaden the pve mesmer's appeal had the opposite effect and marginalised the class.

I sort of agree but...

They could go for some splitting, just like they did with the Ritualist (ever noticed half of the current splits are Ritualist skills?)

Then again, the problem is actually well rooted. We currently have an excess of professions, the non-core being sort of redundant and so hard to balance.

Out of the 10 professions available, some of them were badly/limitedly conceived since the start, some of them lacking true peculiarity. That's the problem with Mesmers: for how deep the differences between the two might be, they're basically hexers/indirect damage dealers, like the Necromancers. Designers had to focus the Mesmer on this single target/PvP approach, otherwise the Mesmer would have become just a Necromancer in posh clothes. Changing it now is very hard, and would require an extensive redesign to the whole class - sort of what happened to the Ritualist, getting half of his skillset reworked for PvE - which I doubt will ever happen.

The new approach to professions they've said to be implementing in GW2 is kinda reassuring in this respect. I'd expect only one class dealing with hexes in the sequel, with probably multiple ways to develop this ability.

Tenebrae · Feb 22, 2010, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

When I take Norgu in PvE I have him do interrupting. Helps shut down dangerous high-damage enemies, vastly contributes to party survival.

Mesmers' primary function is interrupts, and they do that extremely well.

Oh you mean Heroes ? yeah sure , what about players interrupting in HM ? yeeeah .... i thought so .

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 22, 2010, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

what about players interrupting in HM

Guess they need better reflexes! ^ ^ Otherwise, I'll take a hero over them any day.

drkn · Feb 22, 2010, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

When I take Norgu in PvE I have him do interrupting. Helps shut down dangerous high-damage enemies, vastly contributes to party survival.

Mesmers' primary function is interrupts, and they do that extremely well.

i'll say it for a third time. and sorry for the caps, but... you know, i don't like repeating myself.

WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT MESMER HEROES HERE. AT ALL.

now make a mesmer, go into hard mode and try to interrupt mobs. even if you are successful, one-two interrupts every 20+ seconds changes nothing - there are too many mobs to even notice the change. that is, if you are successful.

there was another Shriketalon's idea in another thread.
make mesmer mantras party-wide.

and it can be easily done. keep them as stances, so only one mantra can be up at a time. instead of it having a direct effect, change mantras into something like: "Stance. Creates an enviromental effect for party members within earshot. Those party members get x less damage from y and get z energy whenever hit by y".
there are LOADS of possibilities to buff mesmers in pve, not add damage to them, not overbuff them and keep them mesmerish. just play one, look at the skills and use your brain.

Quote:

They could go for some splitting, just like they did with the Ritualist (ever noticed half of the current splits are Ritualist skills?)

that's fun actually - TK is soooo against skill splits, but there is an assload of splits on ritualist skills. because 'spirits in pve sucked when cast 6s'? now sum it up with ritualists being buffed even further...
mesmers suck for the whole time, because of various reasons. splits, please!

Carboplatin · Feb 22, 2010, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Mesmers never being top of the classes?

Remeber Cryway before the VoR nerf? VoR/CoF teams were the spikers in every DoA HM run. I don't wanna hear about mesmers never being used in high end PvE, its maybe your mesmer never got used, then its just a matter of joining the right guild to play.

My main is a Para. I know how you mesmers feel about not getting updates. I have given up on my para, running imba/SY! is not what that class should be forced to do. Try joining a DoA HM with a Para. This lack of inclusion of classes does not only apply to mesmers, it applies to alot of us.

Our guild runs NM DoA all the time and yes we use mesmers, we havn't been able to come up with a balanced team for HM DoA that doesn't take under 2 hours to do. All the other elite areas can be done with any class in HM.

If you wanna pug DoA HM, it'll never happen, unless they bring back ursan.

Stolen Souls · Feb 22, 2010, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngelWJedi

okay i think its silly people think 600 is easy. if its easy why do we have to bring heals for them in cof? why do we have to bring dmg for dungeons they run like vloxxen and frostmaw? if its so good and easy why cant it do ducan's or all of uw? and when you go on a run and have the 600 die more then 6 times before half of lvl one is done in cof then you can rethink its easy.

If my runner dies 6 times halfway through level one it means he's very close to ragequitting in embarassment, or it's time for me to leave and find a runner that doesn't suck. Having a bad runner does not = 600 being hard. 600 IS easy, just like Shadow Form IS easy. Both are easy ways to clear/run certain areas, and if one is looked at, both should be (imo). If they were to nerf SF alone, everyone would migrate to 600/smite, which would become the new dominant overpowered build. Everyone would cry nerf. It would be nerfed, and everyone would migrate to Obby Flesh, which would become the new dominant overpowered build. Everyone would cry nerf. Their way of dealing with all three at once is probably the best way. And yes, I use both 600/Smite and SF.

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 22, 2010, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

now make a mesmer, go into hard mode and try to interrupt mobs

Don't need to, got a hero to do it for me

Not sure why anyone would make a mesmer character, it's a hero's job in PvE.

drkn · Feb 22, 2010, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Remeber Cryway before the VoR nerf? VoR/CoF teams were the spikers in every DoA HM run. I don't wanna hear about mesmers never being used in high end PvE, its maybe your mesmer never got used, then its just a matter of joining the right guild to play.

too bad vor/cof was mostly abused by primairy eles on mindbender due to their high energy backup. NO investment in fc cause of mindbender, NO investment for cof, and vor was only to fuel up cof spikes.
i remember when it was used. even then, when i tried to join with my mes, people were like 'meh, eles are better, they don't run out of mana after mindbender/vor/echo/cof'. i don't mean that i wasn't invited to alliance groups from time to time to run cryway; but still, even with so overpowered mesmer skill, it's availability to other primairies left the mesmers neglected.

Orry · Feb 22, 2010, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT MESMER HEROES HERE. AT ALL.

now make a mesmer, go into hard mode and try to interrupt mobs. even if you are successful, one-two interrupts every 20+ seconds changes nothing - there are too many mobs to even notice the change. that is, if you are successful.

Why would I bother inturrupting the mobs on the mesmer I'm actually playing, they cast/attack themselves to death so nicely with Empathy+Backfire? Cry of Pain can add some decent degen to that. You can throw high cost spells on your bar with Lyssa's Aura, you can make a 3-4 attribute split skill bar with SoI. Mesmer's have options, the problem is you have to know who to put backfire on and who to put empathy on for it to have the greatest effect.

drkn · Feb 22, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

@Orry:
i've just replied to another silly statement about mesmer heroes, as it's not the topic of this discussion.
even with empathy and backfire put with your best targeting and timing, it's still indirect damage that can easily be stripped (bosses already have 1/2 hex duration, so...). even at your best, you're still much slower/weaker than other classes. if some hexes, as empathy, were AoE or dealt more damage as it's indirect, though...

bottom line. counted all the splits profession-wise:
6 sin
6 derv
4 ele
5 mes
7 monk
6 nec
22 para
14 ranger
32 rit
3 war

after taking a brief look at them, almost all splits were done to nerf more or less powerful pve skills in pvp. example? Mantra of Inscriptions. pvp recharges boost is about half slower than the pve one. it was toning the skills down for pvp.
on the other hand, rits (and paras to some level, but not THAT much) got buffs in pve, while the earlier version of the skill remained in pvp. with 32 rit splits done already, why are you so much against splitting ~10-20 mesmer skills, TK? i think we have all agreed that it was a pvp-designed class, but GW is not 'pvp only' or 'pve only' and it's possible to buff a class by splits as proven on a rit (again, ritwars say hello). laziness (maybe someone should replace you?), lack of ideas (maybe start reading sardelac?), buffing your personal fav classes or simply having a grudge on mesmers because they've interrupted you a bit too often in pvp?

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 22, 2010, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

Why would I bother inturrupting the mobs on the mesmer I'm actually playing

Because some enemies carry spells that can rape the party if you don't have an SY spammer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

they cast/attack themselves to death so nicely with Empathy+Backfire?

Pain Inverter does the job better if you're going for the damage-rather-than-interrupt route.